{"corpus":"steiner","locus":"GA 173c/1917-01-20/p013","lang":"en","edition":"English","edition_basis":null,"is_original":false,"is_default_edition":true,"text":"I said that in olden times there was no question of discussing whether immortality existed or not. People then had a third condition apart from sleeping and waking, an in-between condition which was not merely a state of dreaming. It was an elementary and natural condition, in which human beings saw their dead spiritually face to face. They were there and they lived together with them. In those earlier times, when people did something, or when something happened to them which was a little out of the ordinary—and this of course happened and still happens all the time, for we are not only creatures of habit—they then felt beside them one or another of those who had gone through death before them, either long, or not so lang, ago. They felt as though the dead person acted with them, or joined in their counsel. So when the soul of a person living on the earth decided to do something, or when something happened to that person, this soul felt that there was one who had died who joined in the action or the suffering. The dead were present. So there was no discussion about immortality or the lack of it. It would have been as pointless as questioning whether someone with whom we are speaking is actually there or not. Whatever we experience is a reality, and in olden times people experienced how the dead shared in all that happened.","text_trust":"verbatim","quote_safe":true,"title":"Lecture XXI","site_heading":"Ceremonial Magic, Dead Souls, and Ahrimanic Immortality","site_heading_note":"A heading the site wrote for this unit from a summary of it; not in the edition, and not the words of Rudolf Steiner or of the translator. Cite the unit by its title and locus, never by this heading, and do not quote it.","date":"1917-01-20","location":null,"word_count":240,"url":"https://anthroposophy.ai/v1/steiner/en/ga/173c/1917-01-20/p013","alignment_confidence":"medium","alignment_reason":"beads:length","two_voice_volume":false,"translation_credit":{"scope":"unit","status":"not_established","translator":null,"identified_edition":"RSP1988","book_title":"The Karma of Untruthfulness II","publisher":"Rudolf Steiner Press","publisher_inferred":true,"match_score":1.0,"source_url":"https://www.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA173c/English/RSP1988/19170120p01.html","evidence":null,"reason":"no_translator_named","note":"Neither the lecture's own page nor rsarchive's lecture list names a translator for it. No translator is established for this lecture: nothing at the level of the lecture names one. Do not attribute this English to a translator, and do not borrow a credit from another lecture of the volume. Cite the German for anything load-bearing."},"edition_coverage":{"de":["original"],"en":["English"]},"available_versions":[{"lang":"de","edition":"original","edition_basis":null,"is_original":true,"is_default_edition":true,"url":"https://anthroposophy.ai/v1/steiner/de/ga/173c/1917-01-20/p013"},{"lang":"en","edition":"English","edition_basis":null,"is_original":false,"is_default_edition":true,"url":"https://anthroposophy.ai/v1/steiner/en/ga/173c/1917-01-20/p013","paragraph_aligned":true}],"record":{"record_type":"stenogram","scope":"volume","note":"Shorthand transcript taken during the lecture — the strongest kind of lecture record in this corpus.","evidence":"Diese dreibändige Ausgabe wurde auf der Grundlage der stenografischen Nachschriften vollständig neu bearbeitet.","evidence_translation":"This three-volume edition was completely re-edited on the basis of the shorthand transcripts.","evidence_source":"The publisher's description of GA 173a-c, as mirrored on AnthroWiki (GA 173a-c). The translation is the maintainer's, not a published one."},"german_anchor":{"de_prefix":"1917-01-20","de_passages":[{"locus":"GA 173c/1917-01-20/p010","url":"https://anthroposophy.ai/v1/steiner/de/ga/173c/1917-01-20/p010"}],"bead_confidence":"medium","pairing_state":"proposed","verified":false,"length_check":{"de_words":262,"en_words":240,"ratio":0.92,"partial":false},"correspondence":"established","note":"English passage numbering is edition-relative, so the same number need not name the same paragraph in the German. The German original passage(s) above are the edition-invariant anchor — fetch them (lang='de') to verify wording before quoting across editions."},"paired_german":{"status":"paired","german":[{"locus":"GA 173c/1917-01-20/p010","passage_number":10,"text":"Ich sagte, für frühere Zeiten konnten die Leute eigentlich gar nicht sprechen davon, ob es Unsterblichkeit gäbe oder nicht. Sie hatten einen dritten Zustand außer dem Schlafen und Wachen, einen Zwischenzustand, der nicht bloß in Träumen bestand, sondern der sich auslebte auf elementarisch-natürliche Art, so daß die Menschen von geistigem Angesicht zu geistigem Angesicht sahen ihre Toten. Die waren da, mit denen lebten sie. Wenn wir zurückgehen in der MenschheitsentwickeJung, so ist es durchaus so, daß wenn zum Beispiel ein Mensch etwas tat, oder wenn ihm etwas geschah, das aus dem Gewohnheitsmäßigen herausfiel — und solches kommt ja beim Menschen vom Morgen bis zum Abend fortwährend vor, er ist ja nicht bloß ein Gewohnheitstier, er tut ja nicht bloß dasjenige, was rein gewohnheitsmäßig ist —, wenn er also irgend so etwas tat, oder wenn ihn so etwas traf, so fühlte er in alten Zeiten neben sich den oder jenen Toten, der vor kürzerer oder längerer Zeit von ihm gegangen war. Er fühlte, daß der mittat, oder daß der mitriet. Indem also die Seele des hier auf der Erde lebenden Menschen sich zu dem oder jenem entschloß, oder dies oder jenes erlitt, fühlte sie, daß der oder jener Tote mittat, mitlitt. Also die Toten waren da. Daher konnte man nicht über Unsterblichkeit oder Nichtunsterblichkeit diskutieren. Es hätte keinen Sinn gehabt, so wenig wie es einen Sinn haben würde, in Frage zu stellen, ob ein Mensch, mit dem man eben redet, wirklich da ist oder nicht. Dasjenige, was man erfährt, ist eben Wirklichkeit, und in alten Zeiten hatte man das Mittun der Toten erfahren.","text_trust":"verbatim","quote_safe":true,"word_count":262,"url":"https://anthroposophy.ai/v1/steiner/de/ga/173c/1917-01-20/p010"}],"english":["GA 173c/1917-01-20/p013"],"method":"length","confidence":"medium","correspondence":"established","length_check":{"de_words":262,"en_words":240,"ratio":0.92,"partial":false},"pairing_state":"proposed","verified":false},"witness_completeness":{"ratio":1.0,"band":"comparable","note":null,"word_count":5322,"original_word_count":5331,"may_be_abridged":false},"witness_quality":{"translator":{"scope":"unit","status":"not_established","translator":null,"identified_edition":"RSP1988","book_title":"The Karma of Untruthfulness II","publisher":"Rudolf Steiner Press","publisher_inferred":true,"match_score":1.0,"source_url":"https://www.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA173c/English/RSP1988/19170120p01.html","evidence":null,"reason":"no_translator_named","note":"Neither the lecture's own page nor rsarchive's lecture list names a translator for it. No translator is established for this lecture: nothing at the level of the lecture names one. Do not attribute this English to a translator, and do not borrow a credit from another lecture of the volume. Cite the German for anything load-bearing.","warning":"No translator is recorded for this edition. An unattributed translation cannot be weighed as a witness: you cannot tell which hand made the choices in it. Cite the German for anything load-bearing."},"entity_parity":{"status":"ok","checked_against":["GA 173c/1917-01-20/p010"],"missing_from_translation":[],"present_only_in_translation":[],"bead_confidence":"medium","note":"Every load-bearing name in the German counterpart appears in this English passage. That is a check on NAMES only: a translation can keep every name and still reverse who acts on whom, change a number, or soften a claim. Read the German for anything you intend to rest an argument on."},"note":"quote_safe certifies the bytes of this text. This block is about the translation as a WITNESS: who made it, and whether it carries the same names as the original. See witness_completeness for how much of the original this witness holds."}}