{"corpus":"steiner","locus":"GA 70b/1916-01-14/p014-p016","extent":"range","passage_number":14,"through":16,"paragraph_count":3,"first_locus":"GA 70b/1916-01-14/p014","last_locus":"GA 70b/1916-01-14/p016","lang":"en","edition":"English","edition_basis":null,"is_original":false,"is_default_edition":true,"title":"8. The Harmony Between Spiritual Science and Natural Science and the Misconceptions about the Former and the Building Dedicated to it in Dornach","date":"1916-01-14","location":null,"alignment_confidence":"high","alignment_reason":"beads:length","two_voice_volume":false,"translation_credit":{"scope":"unit","status":"established","translator":"Steiner Online Library","identified_edition":"SOL2024","book_title":"Ways to a Knowledge of the Eternal Forces of the Human Soul","publisher":"Steiner Online Library","publisher_inferred":true,"match_score":1.0,"source_url":"https://www.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA070b/English/SOL2024/19160114p01.html","evidence":"lecture_page_line","publisher_note":"The publisher is inferred from the edition code in this lecture's source URL, not stated by the source page. The translator IS verified for this lecture: its own source names the translator (evidence: the lecture's page, rsarchive's lecture list, or the cover of the book it was published in), and that page's text was matched against this unit (see match_score and source_url). Cite the translator with confidence; attribute the publisher only as probable."},"edition_coverage":{"de":["original"],"en":["English"]},"record":{"record_type":"unknown","scope":"volume","note":"How this text was taken down (shorthand transcript, listeners' notes or manuscript) is not on record here. Unknown is not an assurance of a stenogram: check the edition's own notes before resting an argument on one word.","evidence":null,"evidence_translation":null,"evidence_source":null},"other_renderings":{"loci":[{"locus":"GA 288/1916-01-14","ga":"288","lecture":"1916-01-14","kind":"excerpt","relation":"an excerpt or summary of the same lecture, or the lecture this unit excerpts"}],"note":"The same lecture is also served at the loci listed, each with how it relates to this one. They are ONE witness, not independent attestations: quote the rendering you fetched, and do not cite another as corroborating it. Wording differs between translations, so a quotation found in one need not occur in the other."},"witness_completeness":{"ratio":1.04,"band":"comparable","note":null,"word_count":11706,"original_word_count":11292,"may_be_abridged":false},"site_heading":null,"url":"https://anthroposophy.ai/v1/steiner/en/ga/70b/1916-01-14/p014-p016","json_url":"https://anthroposophy.ai/v1/steiner/en/ga/70b/1916-01-14/p014-p016.json","lecture_url":"https://anthroposophy.ai/v1/steiner/en/ga/70b/1916-01-14#p014","word_count":1052,"quote_safe":true,"passages":[{"passage_number":14,"locus":"GA 70b/1916-01-14/p014","text":"Understandably, misunderstandings arise from many, many other things as well. I would now like to point out a misunderstanding that is bound to arise in a perfectly understandable way. As we saw the day before yesterday, the spiritual researcher has to speak of how, through what he does with his own soul, the soul powers are changed, that a different kind of soul activity from that of ordinary life and ordinary science occurs in his soul. And so someone who is grounded in natural science must say to himself: Well, if a different soul life can be distinguished from the soul life that we can call normal — we are familiar with that; these are all the abnormal phenomena of the soul, which are known under the most diverse names, and which can only be distinguished by the self-deception that the spiritual researcher arbitrarily wants to bring about with his own soul. Then the naturalist shows us how certain soul processes of normal life are closely bound to a normal brain; he shows us, by the very sure and conscientious scientific method, how spiritual processes cease when certain parts of the brain are switched off, and he shows us how spiritual processes, how the whole soul life, the whole soul mood, can be changed by a physical change. The natural scientist can then reply to the spiritual researcher: Yes, is nothing more achieved by those strange exercises, which you speak of as a strange enthusiast, than a change in the physical organization, albeit one that cannot be proven externally or anatomically? And is not, after all, what you call spiritual research methods with other soul powers nothing more than a special kind of disorder of the soul life in general?","text_trust":"verbatim","quote_safe":true,"word_count":290,"url":"https://anthroposophy.ai/v1/steiner/en/ga/70b/1916-01-14/p014","witness_quality":{"translator":{"scope":"unit","status":"recorded","translator":"Steiner Online Library","identified_edition":"SOL2024","book_title":"Ways to a Knowledge of the Eternal Forces of the Human Soul","publisher":"Steiner Online Library","publisher_inferred":true,"match_score":1.0,"source_url":"https://www.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA070b/English/SOL2024/19160114p01.html","evidence":"lecture_page_line","publisher_note":"The publisher is inferred from the edition code in this lecture's source URL, not stated by the source page. The translator IS verified for this lecture: its own source names the translator (evidence: the lecture's page, rsarchive's lecture list, or the cover of the book it was published in), and that page's text was matched against this unit (see match_score and source_url). Cite the translator with confidence; attribute the publisher only as probable."},"entity_parity":{"status":"ok","checked_against":["GA 70b/1916-01-14/p014"],"missing_from_translation":[],"present_only_in_translation":[],"bead_confidence":"high","note":"Every load-bearing name in the German counterpart appears in this English passage. That is a check on NAMES only: a translation can keep every name and still reverse who acts on whom, change a number, or soften a claim. Read the German for anything you intend to rest an argument on."},"note":"quote_safe certifies the bytes of this text. This block is about the translation as a WITNESS: who made it, and whether it carries the same names as the original. See witness_completeness for how much of the original this witness holds."}},{"passage_number":15,"locus":"GA 70b/1916-01-14/p015","text":"I would like to emphasize, dear attendees, that it is a perfectly possible view from the point of view of someone who is firmly grounded in natural science, if they do not know exactly the spiritual scientific methods. It is a perfectly possible view, which expresses itself in this way, and in particular it is a possible view when one then looks from the natural scientific point of view at the nature of the soul forces, which many who now also call themselves spiritual researchers have, and who possess the opposite of what can indeed be described as a healthy soul life. Now the natural scientist also repeatedly points out something to us that I would say is trivial, but which is no less striking when viewed from the perspective of the scientific way of thinking. It is striking when one wants to refute the observation of particular, completely free forces and experiences of the soul that go through births and deaths. The natural scientist says, precisely on the basis not of mere prejudice but on the basis of careful observations by physiological science, the natural scientist says: One can see how physical life develops slowly from childhood on, and how the development of soul life goes parallel with physical development. One really sees how closely bound the soul life is to the bodily life. One then sees how the body must have attained a certain formative maturity at a certain age in order for the soul life to develop in a way that can be described as normal. And again, one sees how, with the decline of physical strength in old age, with the demise of the organs, the spiritual-soul life recedes. And objections to an independent spiritual and mental life have repeatedly arisen in the course of the nineteenth century, which - I would say - were based on this ground.","text_trust":"verbatim","quote_safe":true,"word_count":313,"url":"https://anthroposophy.ai/v1/steiner/en/ga/70b/1916-01-14/p015","witness_quality":{"translator":{"scope":"unit","status":"recorded","translator":"Steiner Online Library","identified_edition":"SOL2024","book_title":"Ways to a Knowledge of the Eternal Forces of the Human Soul","publisher":"Steiner Online Library","publisher_inferred":true,"match_score":1.0,"source_url":"https://www.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA070b/English/SOL2024/19160114p01.html","evidence":"lecture_page_line","publisher_note":"The publisher is inferred from the edition code in this lecture's source URL, not stated by the source page. The translator IS verified for this lecture: its own source names the translator (evidence: the lecture's page, rsarchive's lecture list, or the cover of the book it was published in), and that page's text was matched against this unit (see match_score and source_url). Cite the translator with confidence; attribute the publisher only as probable."},"entity_parity":{"status":"ok","checked_against":["GA 70b/1916-01-14/p015"],"missing_from_translation":[],"present_only_in_translation":[],"bead_confidence":"high","note":"Every load-bearing name in the German counterpart appears in this English passage. That is a check on NAMES only: a translation can keep every name and still reverse who acts on whom, change a number, or soften a claim. Read the German for anything you intend to rest an argument on."},"note":"quote_safe certifies the bytes of this text. This block is about the translation as a WITNESS: who made it, and whether it carries the same names as the original. See witness_completeness for how much of the original this witness holds."}},{"passage_number":16,"locus":"GA 70b/1916-01-14/p016","text":"Now the spiritual researcher is by no means opposed to the natural scientist in this field, but on the contrary, with regard to the positive statements of the natural scientist, the spiritual researcher fully agrees with him. The spiritual researcher says: Yes, if one looks at the thinking, feeling and willing that is taken for granted in ordinary life and in ordinary science, then what physiology has to say is fully justified; for this thinking, feeling and willing is closely bound in this form to the physical organization of the body. But the true spiritual researcher does not stand on the ground that, for example, by merely observing ordinary thinking, feeling and willing - as it presents itself in everyday life and in ordinary science - one can thereby arrive scientifically at the immortality of the human soul. Rather, the true spiritual researcher says to the natural scientist: You are quite right when you claim that the forms of thinking, feeling and willing that reveal themselves in ordinary life and in ordinary science are bound to the physical-bodily organization, that they are so bound to the physical-bodily organization that they could not and should not be thought of at all without this physical-bodily organization. But it is precisely through the spiritual research method that it can be seen that there is something in this thinking, feeling and willing: the thinking of which I spoke the day before yesterday, or rather the thinking activity and that being that is contained in the stream of will, that they are so intrinsic that they cannot be grasped by the consciousness of ordinary science and ordinary life, and that they are what preceded our present life on earth in the spiritual world and will follow our death in the spiritual world. What is eternal in the human soul must first be sought. And it cannot be sought if one stops at ordinary thinking, feeling and willing. So says the spiritual researcher. If today there could even be any philosophical worldviews that believe they can contradict science by looking at ordinary thinking, feeling and willing and mentally deriving all kinds of things from this thinking, feeling and willing - they could contradict by saying: If you look at this thinking, feeling and willing through the usual scientific method, you can see something that reaches beyond death. When philosophers speak like this, the spiritual researcher says: No, these judgments will increasingly disappear from the world. Rather, with what is indicated here, the natural scientist will be proven right more and more. And that is why spiritual research is actually in complete harmony with the justified results of the scientific way of thinking in this field.","text_trust":"verbatim","quote_safe":true,"word_count":449,"url":"https://anthroposophy.ai/v1/steiner/en/ga/70b/1916-01-14/p016","witness_quality":{"translator":{"scope":"unit","status":"recorded","translator":"Steiner Online Library","identified_edition":"SOL2024","book_title":"Ways to a Knowledge of the Eternal Forces of the Human Soul","publisher":"Steiner Online Library","publisher_inferred":true,"match_score":1.0,"source_url":"https://www.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA070b/English/SOL2024/19160114p01.html","evidence":"lecture_page_line","publisher_note":"The publisher is inferred from the edition code in this lecture's source URL, not stated by the source page. The translator IS verified for this lecture: its own source names the translator (evidence: the lecture's page, rsarchive's lecture list, or the cover of the book it was published in), and that page's text was matched against this unit (see match_score and source_url). Cite the translator with confidence; attribute the publisher only as probable."},"entity_parity":{"status":"ok","checked_against":["GA 70b/1916-01-14/p016"],"missing_from_translation":[],"present_only_in_translation":[],"bead_confidence":"high","note":"Every load-bearing name in the German counterpart appears in this English passage. That is a check on NAMES only: a translation can keep every name and still reverse who acts on whom, change a number, or soften a claim. Read the German for anything you intend to rest an argument on."},"note":"quote_safe certifies the bytes of this text. This block is about the translation as a WITNESS: who made it, and whether it carries the same names as the original. See witness_completeness for how much of the original this witness holds."}}],"witnesses":[{"lang":"de","edition":"original","is_original":true,"is_default_edition":true,"first_passage":1,"last_passage":48,"passage_count":48,"word_count":11292},{"lang":"en","edition":"English","is_original":false,"is_default_edition":true,"first_passage":1,"last_passage":49,"passage_count":49,"word_count":11706,"completeness":{"ratio":1.04,"band":"comparable","note":null}}],"aligned_witness":{"status":"aligned","lang":"de","edition":"original","confidence":"high","passages":[{"locus":"GA 70b/1916-01-14/p014","passage_number":14,"text":"Es entstehen Missverständnisse begreiflicherweise noch durch vieles, vieles andere. Auf ein Missverständnis, das in durchaus verständlicher Art entstehen muss, möchte ich nunmehr hinweisen. Der Geistesforscher muss sprechen davon, wie wir vorgestern gesehen haben, dass durch das, was er mit der eigenen Seele vornimmt, die Seelenkräfte umgeändert werden, dass eine andere Art der Seelenverrichtung, als die des gewöhnlichen Lebens und der gewöhnlichen Wissenschaft, in seiner Seele auftritt. Da muss derjenige, der zunächst erst auf dem Boden der Naturwissenschaft steht, sich sagen: Nun ja, wenn sich aus dem Seelenleben, das wir als das normale bezeichnen können, ein anderes Seelenleben heraushebt — das kennt man ja; das sind alle die abnormen Seelenerscheinungen, die man kennt unter den verschiedensten Namen, und von denen sich auch nur durch eine Selbsttäuschung dasjenige unterscheiden kann, was da auf willkürliche Weise der Geistesforscher mit seiner eigenen Seele herbeiführen will. Da weist uns der Naturforscher dann vor, wie gewisse Seelenverrichtungen des normalen Lebens eng gebunden sind an ein normales Gehirn; er weist uns das eben gerade durch die sichere, durch die gewissenhafte naturwissenschaftliche Methode auf, wie mit dem Ausschalten gewisser Gehirnteile geistige Verrichtungen wegfallen, und er zeigt uns da, wie geistige Verrichtungen, wie das ganze Seelenleben, die ganze Seelenstimmung durch ein körperliches Verändern anders werden kann. So kann der Naturforscher dann dem Geistesforscher erwidern: Ja, wird denn durch jene sonderbaren Übungen, von denen Du als ein sonderbarer Schwärmer sprichst, eben nichts anderes erreicht, als ein — wenn auch äußerlich, anatomisch nicht nachweisbares - Verändern der körperlichen Organisation? Und ist denn nicht im Grunde genommen dasjenige, was Du geistesforscherische Methoden nennst [mit] anderen Seelenkräften, nichts anderes, als eine besondere Art der Erkrankung des Seelenlebens überhaupt?","text_trust":"verbatim","quote_safe":true,"word_count":275,"url":"https://anthroposophy.ai/v1/steiner/de/ga/70b/1916-01-14/p014"},{"locus":"GA 70b/1916-01-14/p015","passage_number":15,"text":"Ich betone ausdrücklich, sehr verehrte Anwesende, dass es eine durchaus mögliche Ansicht ist vom Standpunkte desjenigen, der gerade feststeht auf naturwissenschaftlichem Boden, wenn er nicht genau die geisteswissenschaftlichen Methoden kennt. Eine durchaus mögliche Ansicht ist es, die sich so ausspricht, und insbesondere ist es eine mögliche Ansicht, wenn man dann vom naturwissenschaftlichen Standpunkte auf die Art und Weise der Seelenkräfte hinsieht, die viele aufweisen, die sich nun auch Geistesforscher nennen und die das Gegenteil von dem [besitzen], was man allerdings als ein gesundes Seelenleben bezeichnen kann. Nun weist uns ja auch der Naturforscher immer wieder und wiederum auf etwas hin, was - ich möchte sagen - zwar trivial ist, was aber deshalb nicht minder im Grunde genommen vom Standpunkte der naturwissenschaftlichen Denkungsweise aus schlagend ist; schlagend ist, wenn man widerlegen will das Hinschauen auf besondere, voll leibfreie, durch Geburten und Tode gehende Kräfte und Erlebnisse der Seele. Da sagt der Naturforscher gerade auf Grundlage nicht von bloßen Vorurteilen, sondern auf Grundlage sorgfältiger Feststellungen der physiologischen Wissenschaft, da sagt der Naturforscher: Man sieht doch, wie sich langsam das körperliche Leben entwickelt von der Kindheit an, und wie mit der körperlichen Entwicklung parallel geht die Entwicklung des Seelenlebens. Wirklich sieht man da, wie eng gebunden das Seelenleben an das leibliche Leben ist. Man sieht dann, wie der Leib eine gewisse Gestaltungsreife in einem gewissen Alter angenommen haben muss, damit auch das Seelenleben etwas werde, das man als ein gewisses Normales bezeichnet. Und wiederum sieht man, wie mit dem Verfall der physischen Kräfte im Alter, mit dem Ableben der Organe das geistig-seelische Leben zurückgeht. Und immer wiederum sind im Laufe des neunzehnten Jahrhunderts Einwendungen gegen ein selbstständiges geistig-seelisches Leben aufgetreten, die - ich möchte sagen - auf diesem Boden standen.","text_trust":"verbatim","quote_safe":true,"word_count":287,"url":"https://anthroposophy.ai/v1/steiner/de/ga/70b/1916-01-14/p015"},{"locus":"GA 70b/1916-01-14/p016","passage_number":16,"text":"Nun steht der Geistesforscher auf diesem Gebiete durchaus nicht dem Naturforscher etwa ablehnend gegenüber, sondern im Gegenteil, in Bezug auf das Positive, das der Naturforscher sagt, gibt ihm der Geistesforscher vollständig recht. Der Geistesforscher sagt: Ja, wenn man hinsieht auf dasjenige Denken, Fühlen und Wollen, welches im gewöhnlichen Leben und in der gewöhnlichen Wissenschaft zunächst als bekannt angesehen wird, so ist das, was die Physiologie einzuwenden hat, voll berechtigt; denn dieses Denken, Fühlen und Wollen ist eng gebunden in dieser Form an die physische Leibesorganisation. Aber der eigentliche Geistesforscher steht eben nicht auf dem Boden, dass man zum Beispiel durch eine bloße Betrachtung des gewöhnlichen Denkens, Fühlens und Wollens - wie es im Alltagsleben und in der gewöhnlichen Wissenschaft sich darlebt -, dass man dadurch auf das Unsterbliche der Menschenseele wissenschaftlich kommen könne. Sondern der wirkliche Geistesforscher sagt zum Naturforscher: Du hast vollständig recht, wenn du behauptest, die Formen des Denkens, Fühlens und Wollens, die im gewöhnlichen Leben und in der gewöhnlichen Wissenschaft sich offenbaren, die sind an die physisch-leibliche Organisation gebunden, die sind so gebunden an die physisch-leibliche Organisation, dass sie ohne diese physisch-leibliche Organisation überhaupt nicht gedacht werden konnten und sollten. Aber gerade durch die geistesforscherische Methode zeigt sich, dass in diesem Denken, Fühlen und Wollen etwas darinnen steckt: jenes Denken, von dem ich vorgestern gesprochen habe, oder vielmehr jene Denktätigkeit und jenes Wesen, das in der Willensströmung enthalten ist, dass die drinnen sind, so drinnen sind, dass sie von dem Bewusstsein der gewöhnlichen Wissenschaft und des gewöhnlichen Lebens gar nicht erfasst werden, und dass die es sind, welche unserem jetzigen Erdenleben vorangegangen sind in der geistigen Welt, und unserem Tode folgen werden wiederum in der geistigen Welt. Was das Ewige in der Menschenseele ist, dasjenige muss erst gesucht werden. Und es kann nicht gesucht werden, wenn man stehen bleibt bei dem gewöhnlichen Denken, Fühlen und Wollen. So sagt der Geistesforscher. Wenn es heute selbst noch irgendwelche philosophische Weltanschauungen geben könnte, die da glauben, sie könnten der Naturwissenschaft widersprechen, wenn sie auf das gewöhnliche Denken, Fühlen und Wollen hinschauen und gedanklich allerlei ableiten aus diesem Denken, Fühlen und Wollen - sie könnten ihr widersprechen, der Naturwissenschaft, indem sie sagen: Man sehe in diesem Denken, Fühlen und Wollen durch die gewöhnliche wissenschaftliche Methode doch etwas, was über den Tod hinausdringt - wenn solche Philosophen so sprechen, so sagt der Geistesforscher: Nein, diese Urteile werden immer mehr und mehr aus der Welt verschwinden. Vielmehr wird mit dem, was hier angedeutet ist, der Naturforscher sogar immer mehr und mehr recht bekommen. Und deshalb steht eigentlich in völliger Harmonie Geistesforschung mit den berechtigten Ergebnissen der naturwissenschaftlichen Denkungsweise auf diesem Gebiete.","text_trust":"verbatim","quote_safe":true,"word_count":438,"url":"https://anthroposophy.ai/v1/steiner/de/ga/70b/1916-01-14/p016"}],"beads":[{"from":[14],"to":[14],"confidence":"high","pairing_state":"proposed"},{"from":[15],"to":[15],"confidence":"high","pairing_state":"proposed"},{"from":[16],"to":[16],"confidence":"high","pairing_state":"proposed"}],"note":"Paired by the paragraph aligner; each language numbers its own paragraphs. A bead at either end of the span can carry text beyond it (the `from` numbers show what each bead covers)."}}