{"corpus":"steiner","locus":"GA 82/1922-04-12/p041","lang":"en","edition":"English","edition_basis":null,"is_original":false,"is_default_edition":true,"text":"It has always been a strange relationship with the scientists themselves. I can still see some of them sitting in front of me – I like to be specific – I can see a botanist sitting in front of me, for example. He was a theosophist in the sense that you may also be familiar with, in the sense of orientalizing mysticism, as it prevails in theosophical societies, for example. I had one of the most learned botanists in front of me, so it was natural for me to talk to the gentleman about botany. For me it was something natural. But he did not want to hear about it. No, no, botany must remain what it is in the university cabinet, not only with him, but also with other botanists. It should remain precisely in the way one acquires practical knowledge through the botanizing drum and works with the microscope. He should not interfere with that! Immediately, when I started a botanical topic, he talked about the etheric body, the astral body and even higher bodies. It was the rule in this theosophical movement that one first talked about all possible bodies, until far up, where they became more and more misty. They did not characterize things as I have done here, by pointing out that the etheric body is a time organism, by trying to present the matter concretely, by characterizing the astral body as that which comes from the spiritual-soul realm and inwardly shapes the body. I have tried to give a characteristic of sleep, even if it is still incomplete. I have always tried to give a concrete description. But people like those I am talking about now were not interested in that. If only one had the words for it: physical body, etheric body, astral body, then further kama manas, and then one went into the highest regions, which became thinner and thinner, but always remained material. It was a strange theosophical materialism that confronted me particularly crudely once when I was at a theosophical congress in Paris. Various lectures were held there. I asked a personality, who was actually very advanced, how she had liked the lectures. She said: Yes, it left wonderful vibrations, wonderful resonances. I felt as if she had said: One smells something extraordinarily good in this room after these lectures. — It was all transferred into the material. One knew nothing of the real spirit. And the man of whom I have just spoken always started from what lay in this direction. I always started from something else, for example, the secrets of root formation, stem formation, flower formation, the spiral tendency of plants, their germination or the like. Nothing, nothing - anthroposophy must not come into it, away with it! The astral body and buddhi and atma kept coming up, as did the rounds and the globes and everything else that is doing the rounds in the world in this sense. In short, I am only giving these as specific examples, but it was actually quite futile to approach scientists in their own scientificness.","text_trust":"verbatim","quote_safe":true,"title":"6. Anthroposophy and Agnosticism","site_heading":null,"date":"1922-04-12","location":null,"word_count":515,"url":"https://anthroposophy.ai/v1/steiner/en/ga/82/1922-04-12/p041","alignment_confidence":"high","alignment_reason":"beads:identity","two_voice_volume":false,"translation_credit":{"scope":"unit","status":"established","translator":"Steiner Online Library","identified_edition":"SOL2025","book_title":"So That Man may Become Fully Human","publisher":"Steiner Online Library","publisher_inferred":true,"match_score":1.0,"source_url":"https://www.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA082/English/SOL2025/19220412p01.html","evidence":"lecture_page_line","publisher_note":"The publisher is inferred from the edition code in this lecture's source URL, not stated by the source page. The translator IS verified for this lecture: its own source names the translator (evidence: the lecture's page, rsarchive's lecture list, or the cover of the book it was published in), and that page's text was matched against this unit (see match_score and source_url). Cite the translator with confidence; attribute the publisher only as probable."},"edition_coverage":{"de":["original"],"en":["English"]},"available_versions":[{"lang":"de","edition":"original","edition_basis":null,"is_original":true,"is_default_edition":true,"url":"https://anthroposophy.ai/v1/steiner/de/ga/82/1922-04-12/p041"},{"lang":"en","edition":"English","edition_basis":null,"is_original":false,"is_default_edition":true,"url":"https://anthroposophy.ai/v1/steiner/en/ga/82/1922-04-12/p041","paragraph_aligned":true}],"record":{"record_type":"unknown","scope":"volume","note":"How this text was taken down (shorthand transcript, listeners' notes or manuscript) is not on record here. 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Sie soll bleiben eben in der Art und Weise, wie man durch die Botanisiertrommel sich die praktischen Kenntnisse erwirbt und mit dem Mikroskop arbeitet. Da soll mir der nicht dreinreden! Sofort, wenn ich angefangen habe ein botanisches Thema, redete er von Ätherleib, Astralleib und noch höheren Leibern. Es war in dieser theosophischen Bewegung ja die Regel, daß man zunächst von allen möglichen Leibern redete, bis weit hinauf, da wurden sie immer nebliger und nebliger. Man charakterisierte die Dinge nicht so, wie ich es hier getan habe, indem ich darauf aufmerksam machte, daß der Ätherleib ein Zeitorganismus ist, indem ich versuchte, konkret die Sache hinzustellen, indem ich den Astralleib charakterisierte als dasjenige, was aus dem Geistig-Seelischen hereinkommt und den Leib innerlich ausgestaltet. Nicht wahr, ich habe auf die Charakteristik des Schlafes hinzuweisen versucht, wenn auch noch unvollkommen. Ich habe immer Konkretes zu charakterisieren versucht. Aber bei solchen Leuten, wie ich sie jetzt meine, interessierte man sich nicht dafür. Wenn man nur die Worte hatte dafür: Physischer Leib, Ätherleib, Astralleib, dann weiter Kama Manas, und dann ging es in die höchsten Regionen hinein, die wurden immer dünner und dünner, blieben aber immer materiell. Es war ein merkwürdiger theosophischer Materialismus, der mir besonders einmal kraß entgegentrat, als ich bei einem theosophischen Kongreß war in Paris. Da wurden verschiedene Vorträge gehalten. Ich frug eine Persönlichkeit, die eigentlich sehr advanced war, sehr vorgerückt, wie ihr die Vorträge gefallen hätten. Sie sagte: Ja, das hat wunderbare Vibrationen zurückgelassen, wunderbare Schwingungen. - Ich kam mir vor, als hätte sie gesagt: Man riecht nach diesen Vorträgen in diesem Raume außerordentlich Gutes. — Es war alles ins Materielle übertragen. Vom wirklichen Geiste wußte man nichts. Und der Mann, von dem ich eben sprach, ging auch immer auf dasjenige aus, was in dieser Richtung gelegen war. Ich immer los auf irgend etwas anderes, zum Beispiel die Geheimnisse der Wurzelbildung, der Stengelbildung, der Blütenbildung, die Spiraltendenz der Pflanzen, ihre Keimbildung oder dergleichen. Nichts, nichts - da darf Anthroposophie nicht hinein, weg damit! Da kam immer wieder gleich der Astralleib und Buddhi und Atma, und die Runden und die Globen und alles das, was da in der Welt sich herumwälzt in diesem Sinne. Kurz - ich führe dies nur als konkrete Beispiele an -, es war eigentlich ziemlich vergebens, an die Wissenschafter in ihrer eigenen Wissenschaftlichkeit heranzukommen.","text_trust":"verbatim","quote_safe":true,"word_count":494,"url":"https://anthroposophy.ai/v1/steiner/de/ga/82/1922-04-12/p041"}],"english":["GA 82/1922-04-12/p041"],"method":"identity","confidence":"high","correspondence":"established","length_check":{"de_words":494,"en_words":515,"ratio":1.04,"partial":false},"pairing_state":"verified","verified":true,"evidence":["length","meaning","anchors","audit"]},"witness_completeness":{"ratio":1.04,"band":"comparable","note":null,"word_count":12477,"original_word_count":12023,"may_be_abridged":false},"witness_quality":{"translator":{"scope":"unit","status":"recorded","translator":"Steiner Online Library","identified_edition":"SOL2025","book_title":"So That Man may Become Fully Human","publisher":"Steiner Online Library","publisher_inferred":true,"match_score":1.0,"source_url":"https://www.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA082/English/SOL2025/19220412p01.html","evidence":"lecture_page_line","publisher_note":"The publisher is inferred from the edition code in this lecture's source URL, not stated by the source page. 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